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Your thoughts and opinions on the history of Kun Khmer and Muay Thai

2020.05.14 03:38 u-don Your thoughts and opinions on the history of Kun Khmer and Muay Thai

I was doing a bit a research on the Cambodian martial arts and I came across this piece under a wiki page even though his name not on there. I was able to track the person who wrote this who is apparently from Hong Kong. If anyone is into khmer history or Southeast asian history, I would like to know what are your thoughts and opinion on what he wrote. If you want to refute on what he wrote, I would love to read on what you have to say and support evidence.
Who's first : Muaythai or Boxkator (Cambodian) written by Alex Tsui
Alex Tsui (Muay Thai historian)- The debate on Muaythai vs. Cambodian Boxe Libre seems to be everlasting. I am a friend of Grand master San Kim Saen since the early 2000, before Bokator became known outside Cambodia. I am a historian on fighting arts — majoring in Muay Thai and other S.E. Asian disciplines, and actually began 1n 1965. The views below are part of my findings and I draw no race lines, being Chinese raised in the former British colony of Hong Kong. I taught (since 1975),wrote, commented, promoted and officiated, in Hongkong, China, Thailand & Myanmar.

First, I believe the combat arts of Thailand, Cambodia, Laoos, Vietnam, and Burma all had a common root in the distant past — probably when their forefathers were inhabiting various regions as minority groups in Yunnan. We are talking about the time of Gautama, the Buddha, i.e. before B.C. 544 or 2,500 years from our time. Fusion and cross-pollination of the tribal cutlures had been taking place since time immemorial, through war and inter-marriage. We only have different names such as Muaythai, Kun Khmer or Myanmar Let Whyat and Tu Luyen Vo Tu Do ( free-style boxing art ) because of political preference – often dictated by nationalism – and/or regional cultural and conceptual / linguistic inclinations. These elements, over the face of changing history, have influenced the arts in diffrenent ways and to varying extents. Indochina, in the most ancient times, was known as Suvannabhumi ( the Golden Land ), and tribes of settlers and migrants, from China as well as the oceanic islands, were roaming freely with no recognizable boundaries. The ancient Yue ( Southern Barbarians in Chinese History ) , and the Wa people were there, preceded by the more indigenous or native Negroid and primitive Paleo-Caucasoid groups. Ancestors of the Thai, Khmer, and Mon-Burmans were all in Yunnan, around the region of Erhai Lake, as tribal confederates, and each, invariably, had been subject to Chines influence at divers times and to different degrees dependent on the extent of the Chinese rule over or interaction with the particular people. Tribes of the primeval Shan-Tai, for example, goes way back, to the age of Emperor Yaodi (B.C.2282). They had been on the move since, progressively sidelined as the power game in the cental mainland changed its political complexion.

The ancient Shan-Tai groups were migrating into the Indochina peninsula as early as B.C.425. The Cambodians, on the other hand, founded Funan ( A.D.85 ), which was annexed by Chenla in A.D.657. Chenla was a state of mixed races. The primary ones being Cambodians, Indonesian, and the ancient Shan-Tais. In A.D. 707 Chenla split up with the southern part ( Water ) dominated by the Khmers, and the upper ( Land ), by the Shan-Tai-Lao groups. Chinese chroncles attest that Land Chenla, also known as Wen Shen ( Thai language Vieng Shan ), was a glamorous state, and its capital, as we can ascertain today, was Ubon Ratchathani, in northeastern Thailand. Chenla, as far as one can establish, was from the line of Funan, and founded by an Indian prince ( Ksatriya caste ), but constituted by Thai-Lao & Khmer tribes.

A unified Cambodia only emerged in A.D.902, after which the Great Empire of Angkor took over almost the whole of the Menam basin. It is public knowledge that before Siam was officially founded at Sukhothai, the Thai people had been living under Khmer rule, and also, after the fall of Angkor (A.D.1420), a century of Khmerization occurred in Siam. There can be little dispute that the best of Cambodian art and culture had not only continued to develop in the land of its conqueror, but things such as language, architecture, Court rituals, astrology, drama and dancing were received with great passion. It was so intense that the arts and religion of the two civilizations began to merge to a degree never so visibly before.

Noteworthy is the fact that, five centuries later, Cambodia, having lost in the traumatic dark age of the Khmer Rouge almost entirely her classical dancing tradition, managed to re-import the art from Thailand.

So, the question of who has stolen from whom, or who owes her art to whom ? is just too emotive — and perhaps complicated — a subject to resolve by martial art fans. Insofar as historical information is concerned, the points below maybe useful to all those endeavouring to determine the truth, or what came closest to it :

1) The Shan-Tai racial family had a history traceable to the dawn of Chinese civilization. The Cambodians, however, first appeared in around the Eastern Zhou dynasty ( after B.C.770 ) although as a people, they may be some 3,000 years old. The Mon people were in Indochina before the Tai migration and dominated over the other settler groups with the founding of Dvaravati in 500 A.D., and the Burmans, like the Tais, had been inhabiting southwestern China, before moving down to the Golden Land much later, in around the 6th century.

2) The Shan-Tai men were always a fighting race, with a long custom of assigning soldiers (warriors) to watch their village. These were men trained in fighting, with swords or fists.

3) A custom of martial contests at festivals, held to celebrate victory at war, alongside liberal drinking and ecstatic dancing, prevailed in the Kingdom of Ye Lang ( around 400 B.C. ) in Yunnan. It was the largest of the confederates of minority races, with the prime rivals being the Tai and the Yi ( karen ) groups within the state.

4) Indian fighting arts came into the Suvannabhumi region when traders, warrior princes ( Shakya ), and religious missions came east. The first city-state, Ta Gaung, in upper Myanmar, was founded in B.C.850 ( my reckoning is B.C.424 ) by a Shakya prince, Abhi Raza. The state became Tai centuries later. The word “muay” had its origin in the Sanskrit name, Malla, a fighting clan in northeastern India, which has been taken to mean pugilism or a professional wrestler – fighter.

5) Freestyle boxing as a tradition in Southeast Asia possibly took root first in the Korat plateau, during the Chenla period. It is now known to the Thais as the Upper Cambodia region, and the territory has produced many of the premier muaythai fighters in history. Conversely, Battambang, the best known place for its kickboxing culture in Cambodian, has been a Thai province for centuries until 1907. Van Shen ( capital of Land Chenla ), as the name implies, was Town of the Shans. One tribe, the Xang Khao (white elephant ), was recorded in a Chinese document dated 638 A.D. as ” men are, by custom, savage, and brave in combat.” Subsequently, it became the Lao city of Lanxang.

6) At the annual temple fair at Bakong, likely from A.D.889 onwards, boxing became a popular event. Was it Cambodian, or Shan ? Perhaps there was no distinction then.

7) Thailand’s muay tradition was already a known national heritage by the 50′s. The best of Boxe Libre ( in the 60′s ) were nowhere as potent as the the top Thais, due to difference in the industry’s economy on each side, and the comparative popularity in result. Sar Sary, the Cambodian legend, was kayo’d in R2 by Nilpad Lukthon of Thailand at Phnom Penh in 1958, and in March, 1974, at Bangkok’s Rajadamnern Stadium, a Thai vs. Khmer card concluded with 5 : 0 result. Amongst the defeated were the best of Cambodia, including Chea Sarak (148) ( who died a victime of the Khmer Rouge regime ),and Chhith Sarim (118), National Coach for Cambodia’s revived kickboxing in the past decade. I cannot see they could made a wothwhile comparison with the likes of Somdej Yontarakit, Apidej Sidhiran or Puth Lawlek.

Wrestling, presumably Hindu, was part of royal court entertainment in Siam until the 19th century, after which it has been Muay all the way. It was, based on the logic of evolution, eliminated and assimilated by the surviving art, which has been enriched in technological contents in that process. Sport muaythai, what we see today, is only the permissible part of Muay. The Muay Boran — red uniforms and yantra-marked vests — much talked about nowadays is actually Classical Muaythai ( Kadcheuak or bare-knuckled ), whereas real Muay Boran (Muai) is the amateur form of ancient boxing embodying forms and patterns of animals. They are still around, with grappling and fingepalm strikes, locks and throws, body drops and takedowns, in remote regions of Lao, Thailand (north) and Yunnan.
9) Unfortunately people are just subjective in their own perception. I dare say there is no bad martial arts, only folly of ignorant people who cannot see the wood from the trees.
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2019.04.08 07:47 Buckiirogers My Story and some other stuff..

Alright guys and gals and what ever else you may identify as, lol... This is mainly Trek in general related but is part of Discovery so first off let me give you background on my Trek lore knowledge and know how ok...
I am gonna be 35 come july 4th this year, I have been watching Trek since the premiere of TNG and was ALWAYs there for next weeks episode for every Trek that followed then I wanted to learn their roots and where it all began so I watched TOS, and have every movie some was able to see in on the big screen some not... still Trek to me is a big big part of my life as we all have had good times and bad but one constant was always there other then direct family or the odd friend but it was Trek either new episode or rerun it was always there... see I have a huge problem something that I am jealous of all you core fans or kelvin fans or any kind of fan new or old it's part of what is wrong with me as a whole it is what the y "memory retention" not 110% sure what its about or the severity of it but it blows cause I see soooo many post among so many trek groups that I wanna comment on or a debate to take part of and I cant cause I cant like you guys at times recall even the smallest detail of something at times or like something that bleeds over to one of the other series or something in one of the movies that is a cool call back to an old episode or 2... that said i'm not saying that I dont know my trek cause I do its more so that when I hit the memory recall button my brain acts like a stoner and is all like " nah, man I dun wanna move today" so sorry for the french but it F*n sucks, but with this post I will post pics of my collection not only to prove I know my shit but also to show yeahs that I grew up on Trek border lined obsessive almost like when Stewie kidnapped the TNG actors and well yeah know how that went between Ghostbusters and turtles Trek was there for Xmas, easter , bdays like anything toy, model, frank mint collectible or other wise collectible I had it my mom worked stupid hard for me and my sister and brother to have what we had growing up and that in its self wasn't overly much but mom seen how trek made an impact on my life and saw how it affected how I seen the world and what its about... as I grew older we had to move ALOT started in Ontario ended up in Nova Scotia only for me to move back to Ontario, London actually with nothing but 2 duffle bags and maybe like my phone and 60 bucks... I lost... all of it or at least a HUGE portion of it all but after living on the street here and getting in to all sorts of shenanigans I started seeing kids that were mine come in to my life so I turned it around started working towards stability and like a real life again... Trek helped me get through that, all of it good and bad AS well.... but I got to a point where I said I want what I haad back in life related to trek so I did it as the pics will show it, it took a pretty short period of time to get what I have back, but shhhh! dont tell their moms my kids 2 daughters 9 and 10 and my son 12 they all watch it all with me new and old, pretty cool eh....
now with that being said Discovery....All I have to say is WOW!!!
First off season 1 yeah sure I haad my gripes about certain things but I moved past it cause it was Trek and like the kelvin movies I liked it it was mainly changed the way they did sure some corporate sh!t more then likely but mainly to draw new fans to our vast collective Trek has built in this world... but I am gonna go out on limb and assume every one has seen the 1st season here so let get to the main thing here
number 1... S2 as a whole is great so far every episode reminded me of like episodes from older series fight me over it go ahead but I wanna hope TRUE fans can see that they clearly listened to us fans with what we felt was off last season and worked towards fixing some stuff and like yeha know what I mean though and like the overall season story arc they have led up to I think will end in explaining why and how Micheal is the apparent adoptive child of Sarak and Amanda and why they built Discovery in the first place and why the war was started and happened when it did cause in the books you'll see in my pics here it states that I am pretty sure the earth-Klingon war did't happen at the Binary nor in the time frame that episode was set in so it leads me to speculate that the season were in is going to explain the Time Paradox her mom has created due to a chain of events caused by S31 and their experiments in the past and maybe maybe when her mom and dad were presumed dead she gets sent to Vulcan to live with Spock and them but when that placed gets bombed and she runs away and the Red Angel confronts Spock to save Micheal it creates a paradox event that then sent in to motion every thing we have learned up to this point on the show... that said about Control I seen a similar post from this group about how control is named Control in the redditversse some where, the OP said that "Control is called Control cause the show runners didn't wanna out themselves for making a solid origin to the Borg and wanted to fans to come to that conclusion by the last Act of the season final where it would depict a seen in the very distant past connnecting it somehow to the borg and there yeah have it..."... I read that and the rest of the thread and I like lost IQ points like are you guys flat eathers to lol.
now Pike and Spock.... what can I say about that duo for alot of it I am speechless...
Pike for one k... Anson mount has completely sold me on the character thru and thru to the point that if Mr. Hunter in the Cage had the real chance to play out the role and still to the point of his tragic end for character depth and what not Anson mount in my honest opinion has won me over to think that is how pike would have been played out, just they acting alone but in that is like the way he presents him self as pike on the bridge towards his fellows shipmates like how talks and how he smirks and just how tall he seems in the captains chair and soon like the goosebumbs will be like packing and leaving my skin cause we will get to see him sit in the real chair next episode... like I had strong feels during that pike scene in the monastery like know what I know of pike from the cage and his return to Talos 4 and from books or comics that had some from of version written bout his life...
Well as for another version Spock in my life time alone lol...
Spock is one of if not in my top 5 favorite fictional characters of all time like from this point in time today as i type this out dating back to like say I dunno adam and eve or what ever origin of humanity you believe in like top 5 hands down...
Ethan Peck thus has shown me a side of the Spock I know that sure maybe is new for this series and story they are building with Discovery as a whole but it is information to me that makes perfect sense about Spock as a whole to me and fills gaps in his story I feel are an added bonus to the character like I dunno I have to see any official news saying he was done after this season is up but would it not be uber cool for him to stay on for at least S3 to like develop his and micheals clearly new found and looks pretty fixed relationship but also like in his off time kept in constant contact with pike that way to show us the loyalty and honor and what have you towards that man when he take a broken man to Talos 4 to finish his life in complete peace.. I just think when they actually brought him on screen we were getting close to season final as it seeing what 2 episodes left and to be honest I enjoy the main cast but I kinda wanna see more Spock...
all that said in the world today we see so much hate and war and hunger and every that goes against what the great bird in the sky saw for humanity and it kills me that I can be that observant and like I dunno there are a few other words to use but my memory thing is hitting a wall right now and it suck but that said like I stated trek keeps me up going past all of it and I live a pretty decent life to like not give a damn about it all but I pay attention to it all to be able to make informed choices and such and be able to teach my kids the real meaning of peace and love and working together in hopes they will take it as they grow older and new generation will adapt to be the better world he foresaw for us...
So please guys and gals I get it, its new trek some concepts in it were not used to seeing on a constant basis in our beloved franchise, like its 2019 here people the 21st C here people get over your self's like honestly, we have homosexuality, we have flat eathers stil to this day lol, we have people that believe in majics still, like hell people can identify as what ever they want hopefully with in reason maybe and document that shit on actual gov. paperwork like how are you not expecting trek to modernize like its doing like 60 years ago was a different era when trek started so like of course its going to take from that point in modern life with the future aspects and trek history it incorporated... respect the past and embrace the future people maybe help by not bashing the hell out of this cause if CBS randomly states they are done with trek cause they cant bend over for every little detail so your gonna go all star wars fanboy on them and boycott it and they just like pretend trek dont exsist I will come on this super highway find out everything BOUT YOU AND MAKE IT LIKE YOU DONT EXSIST(LOL KIDDING i DONT HAVE ANYWHERE NEAR THAT KINDA POWER TO DO IT ).... but wouldnt it make you feel uber stupid if us fans kicked up a horrible stink about how someones hair looked or oh know its 2019 and its a fictional depicting the utopia style of humanity among the stars and that guy just kissed another guy and then bam all trek was gone for good cause people couldn't adapt and grow with and let it be its thing.... lets help make the world a better people and all get along and be good cause who knows when it all will be gone and then what cause we now have this and I seem to remeber what 5 other shows in the works for CBS and trust me ma they paramount cooking something or 2 for the big screen... this few years are gonna be huge for trek maybe possibly trump those marvels and what they got the last 11 years heck even DC to suck it all of you other attempts built franchises were making a huge come back and were all over the time line with it
sorrys its long I know there are many mistakes and what have so dont be a troll bout it and take it for what it is and like I dunno be kind dammit
night fellow trekkers

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2015.03.13 23:37 tabledresser [Table] IAmA: I'm the Obama Impersonator with Kim Jong Un trending right now, otherwise known as Reggie Brown AMA !

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Date: 2015-03-13
Link to submission (Has self-text)
Questions Answers
Biggest troll/prank you pulled as Obama? Go. Performing at the Republican Leadership Conference and roasting all their candidates before being kicked off on live TV. It made worldwide news for 3 days and brought my website from the bottom pages of Google rankings to the top. 7 months later my ex manager, Dustin Gold, stabbed the producer of a reality show we were taping in the stomach with a steak knife while I slept in the other room. He went to jail far a couple weeks and came out with a vendetta to ruin me and my career. He extorted my website and began to rebook other "Obamas" including the "Bronx Obama" on my bookings while lying to me and telling me he wasn't. I started a new website and released "Obama Gangnam Style " on Youtube. It got over 50,000,000 views worldwide in a week and brought me up to #1 again, beating out my old website my manager hi-jacked from me! I had to beat myself out at the #1 slot to regain control of my bookings and my career.
Love your work! How competitive is it between Obama impersonators? Thanks! I've been on the grind for years, in the beginning, I was traveling around the country, planes trains & automobiles, staying at cheap hotels and doing everything I could (Within reason) to make a name for myself. It's gotten to a point where non of the other "Obamas" compete with me in the corporate entertainment market. I developed a 30 minute multimedia comedy show that I now perform worldwide. All the other "Obamas" are lookalikes and don't what I offer or attempt to do an impression and can't really capture the movements and everything else an impressionist captures to create the illusion that you are the person that you're imitating. I'm not trying to put them down , I'm just relaying what my clients repeatedly tell me.
I hope that didn't sound obnoxious. I'm trying to answer as many questions as I can as quickly as possible!
Why did you start with impersonating Obama? I am from Chicago and my brother Lawrence told me all the way back in 2001 that I looked like " A guy named Barack" who played basketball at The East Bank Club. Later that week, someone else told me to Google the name of her professor "Barack Obama" and I saw an image of him for the first time. Fast forward a few years and EVERYONE who saw me on the street told me I looked like Senator Obama and I realized that if you can become the best presidential impressionist in the world, the benefits are amazing. I've traveled around the world and back again for 6 years and have been able to make an amazing living from it and meet awesome people! Link to
When you spoke with him, had he heard the same about you? We didn't get that far. Secret Service was swarming!
Man, all the pieces that had to fall into to place for this to end up becoming your life. Fucking crazy. Glad you're really enjoying yourself though man... I mean Mr. Potus. Thank you. I know man. It was destiny.
Have you heard this episode of This American Life with Louis Ortiz? If so, are your experiences similar to his? Have you experienced any legitimate anger from people who dislike Obama? I have heard that episode. Louis and I became friends after a mutual manager screwed us both over about a year or two ago. If you saw his documentary, did you see the manager who offers him tons of money and bookings? Those were MY bookings my ex manager was offering to him while he was charging my premium rates based on my successes and pulling the old bait & switch. Louis is a lookalike as they mentioned in the interview which means, he just can't get the voice, mannerisms and performance down so he doesn't compete with me in the corporate world but I think he does do OK in some projects. Thankfully, I think there's enough work out there for all of us! People who dislike Obama transfer that anger onto me at times. I usually disarm them with jokes.
What does the future hold for you after the POTUS leaves office? Have the George Bush or Bill Clinton impersonators helped prepare you for the transition? I will still have a great amount of residual income due to this character but I look forward to having the time to involve myself in other projects I put on the back burner due to my hectic performing/ travel schedule for the past 6 years. I have developed a show that has life outside his terms and he is just one of the many impressions I do and talents that I have. Next Wednesday "Impress Me" airs on Pop TV where I play "Reggie" a character loosely based on myself and I do more of my impressions. Check it out!
Suppose it depends too on what Obama does next. The train might keep rolling. Thanks for the answers. Good luck with everything. Thank you!> It's hard to base my career solely on the performance/ longevity of someone else. That's why I started going to comedy route. Whether you're a Democrat or Republican, I want you to enjoy my comedy. I look forward to bringing things back to my original interests but this job has given me the chance to travel the world, make great money and set myself up for the next business endeavors.
Have you considered on continuing on as a presidential impersonator with the next president that takes office? I have, I did a video with Funny or Die that ended with me as Romney back in 2012. Look it up when you get a second. It was scary.
Do people give you discounts for looking like Obama? Discounts, not really but people pick up tabs, send drinks over and stuff like that. I get free merchandise from clients who want me to endorse their products. I got upgraded to first class on a flight once when I didn't have time to get out of makeup. Funny thing is, my friend Patti, a Sarak Palin impersonator was sitting next to me in the back of the plane. and the flight attendant left her there!
What do you feel when you see blackface, even 'tastefully' done? It all depends on the situation. I think Robert Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder was hilarious! I wasn't offended by that at all. It was done in good taste. If a white kid dresses up as his favorite character or role model who happens to be black for Halloween or something, I think it's acceptable and respectable. It wasn't always been done this way. There have been some disrespectful portrayals of blackface.
Have you ever gotten things for free because people thought you were the president? Definitely! People pick up tabs, send drinks over. I get free merchandise from clients who want me to endorse their products. I got upgraded to first class on a flight once when I didn't have time to get out of makeup. Funny thing is, my friend Patti, a Sarak Palin impersonator was sitting next to me in the back of the plane. and the flight attendant left her there!
How often do people think you are the real Obama? And what do you do when that happens? Every audience I perform in front of thinks I am him for at least the first minute. I've had people chase me out of rooms past my secret service details and ask me to pass legislation on their behalf. In my head I'm thinking" You just heard me tell jokes for 30 minutes, sing and do the moonwalk and you STILL think I'm him!?" lol.
What's the best experience you've ever had while impersonating? After a performance for the top 55 CEOS in Tanzania, Africa a happy client sent my colleague and I on a 2 day safari in the middle of the Selous Game Reserve on Lake Maze in Tanzania. Definitively one of the best days of my life. Another client sent me on a day tour to Jerusalem after I shot a McDonald's commercial in Tel Aviv. Amazing.. .
Does impersonating overwhelm you? The comedy can be hard in a room where people are really opposed to the President. They trasfer those feeling directly on to me. That's why I come out hard with some string openers to get them in my pocket. That usually loosens them up. I love my job though and I love making people laugh.
Do you make a lot of money as an Obama impersonator? When did you realize impersonator was a viable career choice? Let's just say that thanks to Obama I'm in the 1%. How many times have you heard someone say that!? I found out back in 2008 that Steve Bridges was able to make millions as a George W Bush impersonator, so I sought out his manager, Randy Nolen and signed with him!
What is the best moment a (specifically) presidential impersonator has had? Would Vaughn Meader be the biggest ever? I think that Steve Bridges performing with George W Bush is the biggest thing to have happened for an impersonator. It was amazing and I hope that President Obama invites me to do something similar. It's one of the only things left on my to do list as "President"
How did people react when you were walking around with the Kim Jong impersonator? They had a blast, we couldn't stop to accommodate all the picture requests. Howard (Kim Jong Un) was trying to charge them $10 a shot! He actually made $20, I don't like charging. I just want people ot follow me on my social media and post their pics with me tagged!
I am going to assume a Kim Hong UN impersonator brings in far less for an appearance. Howard is actually a lookalike. Most people don't know the difference. He is Chinese but raised in Australia so he has a thick Aussie accent and doesn't attempt to do an impression. That's where the $$'s at!
Crocodile Jong Un! Lol. Exactly.
Have you (or somebody you know) ever met the person they are impersonating? I actually me him in person at a fundraiser in February of 2012. You can Google is to pull up the video or see a still shot at the bottom of this page : Link to I wasn't in makeup when I met him, but he knew who I was :-)
What did you think of the early SNL (Aykroyd, Chase) impressions of Nixon/Ford/Carter where there was little effort to sounds like the subjects, and almost none to look like them? That may have been fine back in the day but I think that the game has evolved. I auditioned for SNL back in 2009 after they saw my Obama and requested me. I wasn't ready back then. NOW I think I would be a valuable asset to the show after professionally performing as a comedian and impressionist for 6 years.
Last updated: 2015-03-17 16:45 UTC
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